Datacenter electrical work...

[essenz]

Doing some electrical work in a datacenter and have been told to use
the buildings approved electrical contractor.

The quote he gave me seems outrageous, and I wanted to see what people
thought. If anyone here has experience in building/pricing out new
breaker panels in a datacenter, I would love to here what you paid to
help put my quote into perspective.

Here is a basic run down of the environment.

My suite has a 480V 3PH 200amp feed coming into it.

1. Install a 480V 400A 3PH panel and connect to incoming feed (5ft
hard conduit)
Price: $5800

2. Install a 208V 200A 3PH panel
Price: $4200

3. Run an electrical connection (15 feet / hard conduit) with remote
disconnect to an HVAC unit
Price: $2300

4. Wire a UPS into the LINE 480V panel, and the LOAD 208V panel, total
of 10 ft of hard conduit.
Price: $1300

5. Run three conduits from the 208V UPS load panel to three 208V 200A
3PH sub-panels. Use 100amp breakers on the main, and 45 feet total
conduit.
Price: $9000

At first glance, I thought this pricing was very high consider it
really isnt that much work as far as man hours, and the parts are not
astronomical in price. Am I wrong here?

[ABLE_1]

So what are you basing your opinion on?? Do you know how to handle 480volt
3 phase or even 208v and what the differences are. The electrician does not
base his price on close proximity of components. His price includes but
limited to his educated knowledge, his van for transportation, the fuel to
get him there, the copper wire sized to match the projected loads, his tools
and equipment to cut, mount, secure all the electrical equipment to make it
safe for everyone that does not know the dangers of electricity, his
labiality insurance, workman's comp, health insurance, taxes, payroll,
education of his crew, secretarial staff to process all the paperwork, the
mortgage on his place of business, property taxes and school on said
property, heating of building, water and sewer, phone service to answer you
call, warrantee repairs on any problems that you may arise for what ever
reason.

Oh!!! and I almost forgot............. PROFIT so that he can stay in
business and keep food on his table.

So how much do you charge for your services???

Have a nice day and I hope your project goes well.

Les

Post by essenz
Doing some electrical work in a datacenter and have been told to use
the buildings approved electrical contractor.
The quote he gave me seems outrageous, and I wanted to see what people
thought. If anyone here has experience in building/pricing out new
breaker panels in a datacenter, I would love to here what you paid to
help put my quote into perspective.
Here is a basic run down of the environment.
My suite has a 480V 3PH 200amp feed coming into it.
1. Install a 480V 400A 3PH panel and connect to incoming feed (5ft
hard conduit)
Price: $5800
2. Install a 208V 200A 3PH panel
Price: $4200
3. Run an electrical connection (15 feet / hard conduit) with remote
disconnect to an HVAC unit
Price: $2300
4. Wire a UPS into the LINE 480V panel, and the LOAD 208V panel, total
of 10 ft of hard conduit.
Price: $1300
5. Run three conduits from the 208V UPS load panel to three 208V 200A
3PH sub-panels. Use 100amp breakers on the main, and 45 feet total
conduit.
Price: $9000
At first glance, I thought this pricing was very high consider it
really isnt that much work as far as man hours, and the parts are not
astronomical in price. Am I wrong here?

[T]

Post by essenz
Doing some electrical work in a datacenter and have been told to use
the buildings approved electrical contractor.
The quote he gave me seems outrageous, and I wanted to see what people
thought. If anyone here has experience in building/pricing out new
breaker panels in a datacenter, I would love to here what you paid to
help put my quote into perspective.
Here is a basic run down of the environment.
My suite has a 480V 3PH 200amp feed coming into it.
1. Install a 480V 400A 3PH panel and connect to incoming feed (5ft
hard conduit)
Price: $5800

Copper is very expensive right now but that seems abnormally high for 5
feet of cabling and conduit along with connections. Should be about 1/3
that price.

Post by essenz
2. Install a 208V 200A 3PH panel
Price: $4200

The panel itself only costs about three hundred dollars. Breakers are
about $30 each. So lets say there are 50 breakers and 4 hours labor at
$125 an hour it'd be around $2,300

Post by essenz
3. Run an electrical connection (15 feet / hard conduit) with remote
disconnect to an HVAC unit
Price: $2300

Again, way out of line. Even if the cable were $20 a foot it'd only come
out to $300 and metal conduit is reasonably cheap, say about the same
price as cable. Eight hours labor is $1,000 so $1,300 seems reasonable.

Post by essenz
4. Wire a UPS into the LINE 480V panel, and the LOAD 208V panel, total
of 10 ft of hard conduit.
Price: $1300

That sounds about right.

Post by essenz
5. Run three conduits from the 208V UPS load panel to three 208V 200A
3PH sub-panels. Use 100amp breakers on the main, and 45 feet total
conduit.
Price: $9000

See the pricing for the panels and derive numbers from that. $9,000
seems high.

[essenz]

Thanks for the info.

I have no real background to use as a frame of reference just general
knowledge. I am concerned the buildings electrical contractor is
taking advantage of me.

Today he told me his hourly rate is $95 per hour. And I got part
pricing from a supplier, back calculating using his rates, it appears
installing a panel will take him 3 days, installing HVAC connection
will take 2 days, and so on.

Now I am not a professional electrician, but I do know that a panel
does not take 3 days to install.

In telecom I break my butt at $65 per hour doing work, and 8 hours
gets a lot down. I refuse to have an electrical contractor sit around
for 3 days for something that can be done in less then 8 hours. I've
moved entire datacenters in less then 8 hours!

I'm getting other bids, but its a real corrupt business all this union
electrical stuff.

-John

Post by T

Post by essenz
Doing some electrical work in a datacenter and have been told to use
the buildings approved electrical contractor.
The quote he gave me seems outrageous, and I wanted to see what people
thought. If anyone here has experience in building/pricing out new
breaker panels in a datacenter, I would love to here what you paid to
help put my quote into perspective.
Here is a basic run down of the environment.
My suite has a 480V 3PH 200amp feed coming into it.
1. Install a 480V 400A 3PH panel and connect to incoming feed (5ft
hard conduit)
Price: $5800

Copper is very expensive right now but that seems abnormally high for 5
feet of cabling and conduit along with connections. Should be about 1/3
that price.

Post by essenz
2. Install a 208V 200A 3PH panel
Price: $4200

The panel itself only costs about three hundred dollars. Breakers are
about $30 each. So lets say there are 50 breakers and 4 hours labor at
$125 an hour it'd be around $2,300

Post by essenz
3. Run an electrical connection (15 feet / hard conduit) with remote
disconnect to an HVAC unit
Price: $2300

Again, way out of line. Even if the cable were $20 a foot it'd only come
out to $300 and metal conduit is reasonably cheap, say about the same
price as cable. Eight hours labor is $1,000 so $1,300 seems reasonable.

Post by essenz
4. Wire a UPS into the LINE 480V panel, and the LOAD 208V panel, total
of 10 ft of hard conduit.
Price: $1300

That sounds about right.

Post by essenz
5. Run three conduits from the 208V UPS load panel to three 208V 200A
3PH sub-panels. Use 100amp breakers on the main, and 45 feet total
conduit.
Price: $9000

See the pricing for the panels and derive numbers from that. $9,000
seems high.

[T]

Post by essenz
Thanks for the info.
I have no real background to use as a frame of reference just general
knowledge. I am concerned the buildings electrical contractor is
taking advantage of me.
Today he told me his hourly rate is $95 per hour. And I got part
pricing from a supplier, back calculating using his rates, it appears
installing a panel will take him 3 days, installing HVAC connection
will take 2 days, and so on.
Now I am not a professional electrician, but I do know that a panel
does not take 3 days to install.
In telecom I break my butt at $65 per hour doing work, and 8 hours
gets a lot down. I refuse to have an electrical contractor sit around
for 3 days for something that can be done in less then 8 hours. I've
moved entire datacenters in less then 8 hours!
I'm getting other bids, but its a real corrupt business all this union
electrical stuff.

Ah, you said the magic word, "Union". Their estimates of time required
are wildly distorted.

I will say this, I do coax and cat5 installs on occasion and had to buy
some footage today. The prices were right where I expected them to be.

[Dale Farmer]

Post by essenz
Doing some electrical work in a datacenter and have been told to use
the buildings approved electrical contractor.
The quote he gave me seems outrageous, and I wanted to see what people
thought. If anyone here has experience in building/pricing out new
breaker panels in a datacenter, I would love to here what you paid to
help put my quote into perspective.
Here is a basic run down of the environment.
My suite has a 480V 3PH 200amp feed coming into it.
1. Install a 480V 400A 3PH panel and connect to incoming feed (5ft
hard conduit)
Price: $5800
2. Install a 208V 200A 3PH panel
Price: $4200
3. Run an electrical connection (15 feet / hard conduit) with remote
disconnect to an HVAC unit
Price: $2300
4. Wire a UPS into the LINE 480V panel, and the LOAD 208V panel, total
of 10 ft of hard conduit.
Price: $1300
5. Run three conduits from the 208V UPS load panel to three 208V 200A
3PH sub-panels. Use 100amp breakers on the main, and 45 feet total
conduit.
Price: $9000
At first glance, I thought this pricing was very high consider it
really isnt that much work as far as man hours, and the parts are not
astronomical in price. Am I wrong here?

It all depends. Where are you located? work in NYC costs a lot more
than the same work in Des Moines. Union or non-union? right to work
state? Government contract? Sweetheart deal with the landlord? Local
status of graft and corruption? Busy season for the electrician? Long
way from supply houses? Can you shut down all electrical power in all
those panels while the work is being done? ( I charge more if you make
me work in a live panel) You going to pay for insurance? Does the
contractor want to make more than his expenses?

These prices are not out of line, considering the high hassle factor,
hazardous nature of the work in a data center that can't be shut down,
and the stupidly expensive specialized tools and training that you need
to work on larger and higher voltage systems.


--Dale

[Ted]

I would get a second estimate. Make sure the company is licensed and insured
and meets the building minimum insurance requirements. I just went through
this on a build out in my office. The second estimate was almost $60,000
less.

Ted

Post by Dale Farmer

Post by essenz
Doing some electrical work in a datacenter and have been told to use
the buildings approved electrical contractor.
The quote he gave me seems outrageous, and I wanted to see what people
thought. If anyone here has experience in building/pricing out new
breaker panels in a datacenter, I would love to here what you paid to
help put my quote into perspective.
Here is a basic run down of the environment.
My suite has a 480V 3PH 200amp feed coming into it.
1. Install a 480V 400A 3PH panel and connect to incoming feed (5ft
hard conduit)
Price: $5800
2. Install a 208V 200A 3PH panel
Price: $4200
3. Run an electrical connection (15 feet / hard conduit) with remote
disconnect to an HVAC unit
Price: $2300
4. Wire a UPS into the LINE 480V panel, and the LOAD 208V panel, total
of 10 ft of hard conduit.
Price: $1300
5. Run three conduits from the 208V UPS load panel to three 208V 200A
3PH sub-panels. Use 100amp breakers on the main, and 45 feet total
conduit.
Price: $9000
At first glance, I thought this pricing was very high consider it
really isnt that much work as far as man hours, and the parts are not
astronomical in price. Am I wrong here?

It all depends. Where are you located? work in NYC costs a lot more
than the same work in Des Moines. Union or non-union? right to work
state? Government contract? Sweetheart deal with the landlord? Local
status of graft and corruption? Busy season for the electrician? Long way
from supply houses? Can you shut down all electrical power in all those
panels while the work is being done? ( I charge more if you make me work
in a live panel) You going to pay for insurance? Does the contractor
want to make more than his expenses?
These prices are not out of line, considering the high hassle factor,
hazardous nature of the work in a data center that can't be shut down, and
the stupidly expensive specialized tools and training that you need to
work on larger and higher voltage systems.
--Dale

[Al Gillis]

Well, Essenz, I'm like you - just the "phone & network dog" at my company
and not an electrician so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about! BUT...

In our Data Center those prices would be considered pretty reasonable. We
just finished a long job replacing older Power Distribution Units with new
ones, rewiring many network equipment cabinets, transferring all the loads
to the new PDUs and cleaning up documentation on those PDUs. We had one
electrician full time and another about 1/3 time for the better part of nine
months. The project moved pretty slowly as the DP people couldn't seem to
organize themselves and proceed - things moved on what I began to call the
"Go-Stop Theory of Project Management". It seemed one thing after another
became a stumbling block on the road to transferring loads off one PDU to
the new ones. Our electricians figured that snail pace into the pricing and
it cost somewhere between a hell of a lot and to much!

But on the good side, the job got done with only one minor unplanned outage
and no backlash from our customers (departments and employees of our
company). So, all in all, everyone was pleased! We thought the accurate
work was worth quite a lot. Our electrician (who had a lot of experience
with our style) wouldn't give us a "Not To Exceed" price - he'd only work it
on a T&M basis!

Good Luck with your project! (And some day, when I have time to do the
typing, I'll tell you all about how electrical estimating really works!)

Post by essenz
Doing some electrical work in a datacenter and have been told to use
the buildings approved electrical contractor.
The quote he gave me seems outrageous, and I wanted to see what people
thought. If anyone here has experience in building/pricing out new
breaker panels in a datacenter, I would love to here what you paid to
help put my quote into perspective.
Here is a basic run down of the environment.
My suite has a 480V 3PH 200amp feed coming into it.
1. Install a 480V 400A 3PH panel and connect to incoming feed (5ft
hard conduit)
Price: $5800
2. Install a 208V 200A 3PH panel
Price: $4200
3. Run an electrical connection (15 feet / hard conduit) with remote
disconnect to an HVAC unit
Price: $2300
4. Wire a UPS into the LINE 480V panel, and the LOAD 208V panel, total
of 10 ft of hard conduit.
Price: $1300
5. Run three conduits from the 208V UPS load panel to three 208V 200A
3PH sub-panels. Use 100amp breakers on the main, and 45 feet total
conduit.
Price: $9000
At first glance, I thought this pricing was very high consider it
really isnt that much work as far as man hours, and the parts are not
astronomical in price. Am I wrong here?