How to detect disconnected numbers?

[Gordon Jarret]

Hi

I'm working for a social research firm that dials random numbers from the
phone book. At least 1 in 5 are disconnected, and I'm told there is a way to
electronically detect disconnected numbers without waiting for the recorded
message.

I'm a database programmer, so I don't know much about telcos, but I'm
guessing that either there is a different impedance across the pair when the
exchange answers, or an inaudible frequency that indicates whether or not a
number is live. That's all I can think of.

Someone solved this once before for my boss when he was at another company,
but their code is proprietory, so I have to start again. I hope someone can
help.

TIA
Gordon

[danny burstein]

Post by Gordon Jarret
Hi
I'm working for a social research firm that dials random numbers from the
phone book.

Gee, that's nice. I live with about 300 million other US residents
who get pissed as hell when we get these phone calls.

How'd you like it if all the people you randomly dial got
ahold of your phone numbers and called you back? How much
would your boss like it?

[Carl Navarro]

On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 06:40:52 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein

Post by danny burstein

Post by Gordon Jarret
Hi
I'm working for a social research firm that dials random numbers from the
phone book.

Gee, that's nice. I live with about 300 million other US residents
who get pissed as hell when we get these phone calls.
How'd you like it if all the people you randomly dial got
ahold of your phone numbers and called you back? How much
would your boss like it?

Yeah, but at least he's not in the U.S.

Gordon, here we use 3 distinct tones called SIT tones to indicate a
non-working number and random number dialing is illegal in most, if
not all, states.

Carl

[danny burstein]

In <***@4ax.com> Carl Navarro <***@wcnet.org> writes:
[ snip ]

Post by Carl Navarro

Post by danny burstein
How'd you like it if all the people you randomly dial got
ahold of your phone numbers and called you back? How much
would your boss like it?

Yeah, but at least he's not in the U.S.

yabbut, he's also a hypocrite. Here he's talking about
making annoyance calls, yet he's got a spam-blocked
address in his post.

Post by Carl Navarro
Gordon, here we use 3 distinct tones called SIT tones to indicate a
non-working number and random number dialing is illegal in most, if
not all, states.

Alas, (no) thanks to the best Congress money can buy,
"non profit" research/polling calls (along with calls
from politicians...) are exempt from most of
the "do not call" regs.

[Gordon Jarret]

In the social research industry, we do understand that some people either
have no opinion, or do not wish to express it. That's fine. We hope though,
that when you refuse to tell us what you think about for example, health or
defence policy, that you forfeit your right to complain when the actions of
government agencies are contrary to your wishes.

At the ballot box, you only get to choose a candidate. It is only through
social research that you get to tell the candidate what you want them to do.

This thread has apparently ceased to have anything to do with telecoms, and
I will not be further drawn on comments not relevant to my question.

Gordon

[danny burstein]

Post by Gordon Jarret
In the social research industry, we do understand that some people either
have no opinion, or do not wish to express it. That's fine. We hope though,
that when you refuse to tell us what you think about for example, health or
defence policy, that you forfeit your right to complain when the actions of
government agencies are contrary to your wishes.

Once again, how would you feel if the 50,000 or
so people you called up... decided to call _you_ up
at your home.

checkmate.

[jpd]

Post by Gordon Jarret
In the social research industry, we do understand that some people either
have no opinion, or do not wish to express it.

You're completely, and deliberately, missing the point. The problem is
that you're telephonically imposing on people without their consent.
Nobody here but you cares about the reasons why you do that to your
victims.

The fact that you're dodging that criticism with snake oil means to me
that you --and, by extention, your company you willingly work for and
the industy you work in-- are dishonourable.

Post by Gordon Jarret
We hope though, that when you refuse to tell us what you think about
for example, health or defence policy, that you forfeit your right to
complain when the actions of government agencies are contrary to your
wishes.

This is just plain flamebait. Australia is supposedly a representative
democracy, and that representation should *not* be outsourced to phone
spamming scum. You are painting yourself into importance you clearly
cannot be trusted with.

Post by Gordon Jarret
This thread has apparently ceased to have anything to do with
telecoms, and I will not be further drawn on comments not relevant to
my question.

You've done that yourself with above flamebait. But then, since all
spammers are stupid, you apparently had to assert you are a spammer.

[John L]

Post by Gordon Jarret
At the ballot box, you only get to choose a candidate. It is only
through social research that you get to tell the candidate what you
want them to do.

Here in the US, it is easy to contact our elected officials by phone
(see, it's on topic), postal mail, web site, and usually e-mail. If
we have something to say, we know where to find them.

Australia must have a very peculiar political structure if the only
way to contact your representatives is via pollsters.

R's,
John

[David Lesher]

Post by John L
Here in the US, it is easy to contact our elected officials by phone
(see, it's on topic), postal mail, web site, and usually e-mail. If
we have something to say, we know where to find them.
Australia must have a very peculiar political structure if the only
way to contact your representatives is via pollsters.

Be honest, John; it's easy to talk to our elected offical's staff;
but getting the Member to actually listen is FAR harder....

[danny burstein]

Post by David Lesher

Post by John L
Australia must have a very peculiar political structure if the only
way to contact your representatives is via pollsters.

Be honest, John; it's easy to talk to our elected offical's staff;
but getting the Member to actually listen is FAR harder....

Meet Mr. Benjamin and his friends.

[Dana]

Post by Gordon Jarret
In the social research industry, we do understand that some people either
have no opinion, or do not wish to express it. That's fine. We hope though,
that when you refuse to tell us what you think about for example, health or
defence policy, that you forfeit your right to complain when the actions of
government agencies are contrary to your wishes.

Just because you do not want some idiots calling you at your home, you do
not lose any right to complain about government action or inaction. That is
the whole basis of democracy. But that does not mean that some people have
the right to bother people at home. If you want to do social surveys, go to
public places where people congregate, and take your surveys there.

Post by Gordon Jarret
At the ballot box, you only get to choose a candidate. It is only through
social research that you get to tell the candidate what you want them to do.

And you can also vote on social issues, like preventing homosexuality from
being forced on the culture.

Post by Gordon Jarret
This thread has apparently ceased to have anything to do with telecoms, and
I will not be further drawn on comments not relevant to my question.

You represent and are working for a group that is out to infinge on the
privacy of others.

Post by Gordon Jarret
Gordon

[Gordon Jarret]

Silly me. I thought I was in a group of intelligent professionals. This is
by far the most unpleasant experience I have ever had on Usenet, you fascist
bitch.

Post by Dana
And you can also vote on social issues, like preventing homosexuality from
being forced on the culture.

[Dana]

Post by Gordon Jarret
Silly me. I thought I was in a group of intelligent professionals. This is
by far the most unpleasant experience I have ever had on Usenet, you fascist
bitch.

My you sure are one tolerant person. Seems you do not allow views, except
for the ones you hold.
Your polls are probably very biased and would not reflect the true view of
the population at large.

Post by Gordon Jarret

Post by Dana
And you can also vote on social issues, like preventing homosexuality from
being forced on the culture.

[Carl Navarro]

Post by Dana

Post by Gordon Jarret
Silly me. I thought I was in a group of intelligent professionals. This is
by far the most unpleasant experience I have ever had on Usenet, you fascist
bitch.

My you sure are one tolerant person. Seems you do not allow views, except
for the ones you hold.
Your polls are probably very biased and would not reflect the true view of
the population at large.

Listen dammit I'm a pollster and I'm calling you with my random
number generator whether you like it or not :-)

[David Lesher]

Post by Gordon Jarret
Silly me. I thought I was in a group of intelligent professionals. This is
by far the most unpleasant experience I have ever had on Usenet, you fascist
bitch.

You might infer that telephone soliciting is a major hot-button topic
in the USA. Several years ago; the Federal Trade Commission establised
a Do Not Call list that consumers could join, to block the sales calls.
The response was staggering even to those anticipating it.

But DNC does not cover several kinds of calls, including surveys that
don't try and sell you anything.

[Gordon Jarret]

Post by David Lesher
You might infer that telephone soliciting is a major hot-button topic
in the USA.

Yeah, I did get that loud and clear.

Post by David Lesher
Several years ago; the Federal Trade Commission establised
a Do Not Call list that consumers could join, to block the sales calls.
The response was staggering even to those anticipating it.

I only maintain a landline because I need it to support my DSL connection.
Telemarketers piss me off as much as anyone.

Post by David Lesher
But DNC does not cover several kinds of calls, including surveys that
don't try and sell you anything.

I know, and in a few weeks the same rules will apply in Australia, and I
regard that as a good thing. Our existing DNC register will be exchanged
with every other research company, and merged with the government DNC
register.

I could go on, but that would only invite more flame.

Best wishes
Gordon

[Jerry Peters]

Post by Gordon Jarret
In the social research industry, we do understand that some people either
have no opinion, or do not wish to express it. That's fine. We hope though,
that when you refuse to tell us what you think about for example, health or
defence policy, that you forfeit your right to complain when the actions of
government agencies are contrary to your wishes.

Lets see, I respond to you using _my_ time, for free, and your company
gets to _charge_ someone. Nice business model, your "raw materials"
are essentially free. If you want to _pay_ for my opinions, then we'll
talk, otherwise I just hang up on idiots in your business.

Post by Gordon Jarret
At the ballot box, you only get to choose a candidate. It is only through
social research that you get to tell the candidate what you want them to do.

Um, no. I can call, email, or mail my representatives, I certainly
don't need you in the middle.
Also I've noted that surveys very often tend to give the results that
the people paying for them want to hear, especially if they're going
to publicize the results.

Post by Gordon Jarret
This thread has apparently ceased to have anything to do with telecoms, and
I will not be further drawn on comments not relevant to my question.
Gordon

Because people are tired of being interrupted by phone calls from
people taking surveys.

Jerry

[Carl Navarro]

On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 12:31:06 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein

Post by danny burstein
[ snip ]

Post by Carl Navarro

Post by danny burstein
How'd you like it if all the people you randomly dial got
ahold of your phone numbers and called you back? How much
would your boss like it?

Yeah, but at least he's not in the U.S.

yabbut, he's also a hypocrite. Here he's talking about
making annoyance calls, yet he's got a spam-blocked
address in his post.

Post by Carl Navarro
Gordon, here we use 3 distinct tones called SIT tones to indicate a
non-working number and random number dialing is illegal in most, if
not all, states.

Alas, (no) thanks to the best Congress money can buy,
"non profit" research/polling calls (along with calls
from politicians...) are exempt from most of
the "do not call" regs.

I'm guessing exempt from DNC but not random calling. A fine line, but
a line just the same.

[Grant Edwards]

Post by Carl Navarro
On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 06:40:52 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein

Post by danny burstein

Post by Gordon Jarret
Hi
I'm working for a social research firm that dials random numbers from the
phone book.

Gee, that's nice. I live with about 300 million other US residents
who get pissed as hell when we get these phone calls.
How'd you like it if all the people you randomly dial got
ahold of your phone numbers and called you back? How much
would your boss like it?

Yeah, but at least he's not in the U.S.

Trust me, people on Oz aren't any more pleased with
random-dailing wankers than the average USian.

[David Lesher]

Post by Gordon Jarret
Hi
I'm working for a social research firm that dials random numbers from the
phone book. At least 1 in 5 are disconnected, and I'm told there is a way to
electronically detect disconnected numbers without waiting for the recorded
message.

Get trunkside access, not line side. In a few words, that means PRI
access. Not to worry; you'd need that anyhow for any volume of
calls. If the telco consultants you hire don't know how to do this,
replace them.

[Gordon Jarret]

Thanks David

I'd be grateful if you'd elaborate on PRI access. We have over 80 seats, and
our own 4 digit prefix, and make at least 15,000 calls a day. I'm basically
databases, user interfaces and networking. Our telco consultants (based
overseas) seem to have no idea what I'm asking.

Cheers
Gordon

[David Lesher]

Post by Gordon Jarret
Thanks David
I'd be grateful if you'd elaborate on PRI access. We have over 80 seats, and
our own 4 digit prefix, and make at least 15,000 calls a day. I'm basically
databases, user interfaces and networking. Our telco consultants (based
overseas) seem to have no idea what I'm asking.

I know zip about AU telco internals, but basically, "lines" talk from
a switch to a phone. Trunks talk between two switches.

Lines signal status via loop current and DTMF and ringing [100+ VAC
at 20 hz here] while trunks pass status via various protocols;
depending on the kind. Primary Rate Access is an ISDN trunk. It has
a data channel back to your switchboard; the call status is part of
the data.

You will need whoever sold you your phone switch to be involved.
They will know how to get such data out.

[Gordon Jarret]

Hi David

Thanks for your advice. Tracking down an AU telco engineer is surprisingly
difficult. Optus, our telco, has outsourced everything to India, where they
have no understanding of what I'm trying to achieve.

Telstra, a former government body which still owns all the infrastucture
including the local loop, refuses to discuss lines that are now part of an
Optus account.

You've given me some ideas to try with a multimeter and signal generator. If
you think of anything else, please let me know.

Many Thanks,
Gordon

[David Lesher]

Post by Gordon Jarret
You've given me some ideas to try with a multimeter and signal generator. If
you think of anything else, please let me know.

Hire someone who does know. You are wasting your time otherwise.
This is akin to trying to use that multimeter to rebuild an
engine on the Ghan....

[Gordon Jarret]

I was labouring under the misapprehension that this was a forum for adult
telecoms professionals. Clearly, it is merely an online kindergarten. I will
not awaken you from your rest period again.

[Paul]

Post by Gordon Jarret
I was labouring under the misapprehension that this was a forum for
adult telecoms professionals. Clearly, it is merely an online
kindergarten. I will not awaken you from your rest period again.

We (tinw) ARE adult telecom professionals -- that is why we do not play
with crank yankers.

[Dana]

Post by Gordon Jarret
Hi
I'm working for a social research firm that dials random numbers from the
phone book. At least 1 in 5 are disconnected, and I'm told there is a way to
electronically detect disconnected numbers without waiting for the recorded
message.
I'm a database programmer, so I don't know much about telcos, but I'm
guessing that either there is a different impedance across the pair when the
exchange answers, or an inaudible frequency that indicates whether or not a
number is live. That's all I can think of.
Someone solved this once before for my boss when he was at another company,
but their code is proprietory, so I have to start again. I hope someone can
help.

Stop dialing random numbers.
If some one wants to hear from your company, they will give your company the
number.

[Gordon Jarret]

What an unbelievably stupid and ignorant comment from someone with so little
self-esteem that they are afraid to take advantage of the opportunity to
influence government policy.

Post by Dana
Stop dialing random numbers.
If some one wants to hear from your company, they will give your company the
number.

[Mark Crispin]

Post by Gordon Jarret
What an unbelievably stupid and ignorant comment from someone with so little
self-esteem that they are afraid to take advantage of the opportunity to
influence government policy.

The above comment, from someone who purports to have such weighty
influence on Australian government policy, explains much of what was
previously mysterious about the workings of said nation's government.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

[Dana]

Post by Gordon Jarret
What an unbelievably stupid and ignorant comment from someone with so little
self-esteem that they are afraid to take advantage of the opportunity to
influence government policy.

I do not need some biased leftist pollster in the middle.

Post by Gordon Jarret

Post by Dana
Stop dialing random numbers.
If some one wants to hear from your company, they will give your company

the

Post by Dana
number.

[stephen]

Post by Gordon Jarret
Hi
I'm working for a social research firm that dials random numbers from the
phone book. At least 1 in 5 are disconnected, and I'm told there is a way to
electronically detect disconnected numbers without waiting for the recorded
message.
I'm a database programmer, so I don't know much about telcos, but I'm
guessing that either there is a different impedance across the pair when the
exchange answers, or an inaudible frequency that indicates whether or not a
number is live. That's all I can think of.

the phone system uses signalling to tell the rest of the network what is
going on.

A good system designed to do what you are doing with it should have an API
to let you understand the target number state.

Post by Gordon Jarret
Someone solved this once before for my boss when he was at another company,
but their code is proprietory, so I have to start again. I hope someone can
help.

anyone who solves a difficult problem in an elegant way often wants to chrge
others to use it - free enterprise in action.

If they offer it for charges, then others then choose to pay that going
rate, or do it themselves, (and have to avoid infringing any patents etc
they took out to protect their investment.

Post by Gordon Jarret
TIA
Gordon

On the flame war you managed to trigger - Australia seems to have an
explicit "opt out" for unsolicied phone calls - and it doesnt sound like you
are using that database to avoid a subset of your targets.
http://www.fia.org.au/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Telemarketing&Template=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=2473

The other risk you run is that this kind of high volume unsolicited calling
is what drives the "do not call" statistics in the 1st place.

And once a high enough %age of the AU number base is in that database, arent
the "random" principles of your research invalidated?

Finally - how can your research claim randon sampling?

Your answer rate is biased by:
1. anyone screening your calls (probably not a problem until you manage to
upset someone who publishes your source numbers).
2. anyone who doesnt have a phone.
3. anyone who doesnt answer during your work hours.

and thats before you factor in people who discover it is an unsolicited call
as part of the process and slam the phone down....

[e***@no.spam]

Post by Gordon Jarret
I'm working for a social research firm that dials random numbers from the
phone book.

Then you should either quit and find a moral job or suicide. You're choice.

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Apr 5, 7:03 pm, "Gordon Jarret"

Post by Gordon Jarret
Silly me. I thought I was in a group of intelligent professionals. This is
by far the most unpleasant experience I have ever had on Usenet, you fascist
bitch.

This is typical arrogant attitude of the telemarketing industry. I'm
sorry to see it exists outside the U.S. as well. But I'm pretty sure
the vast majority of Austrailians aren't like this person.

As to "unpleasant experiences", it was people like you incessantly
calling our house when my mother was seriously ill that made our life
a living hell. It interfered with received critical calls from the
doctor and pharmacy.

As to your claim of valuable public purpose, people have and have had
numerous ways to express their opinions to legislators than some bogus
randomly selected survey.