E911 on a Coin Service Line

[Mark Rudholm]

The only real phone line in my house is a (17Q) coin service line.
This is a proper coin-line designed for use with a standard telco
payphone. I have it because I collect vintage phones and wanted
my Western Electric 2C2 payphone to work properly. Eventually I'm
going to move it to Asterisk once I've hacked the line card driver
to recognize coin tones.

Anyway, I've told others in my household that the payphone is the
best bet for 911 calls (since calls placed from other phones in
the house are completed by various VoIP services).

I wonder, though, if the PSAP is going to see "public telephone"
(Class of Service = "27") on their screen if we call 911 from the
coin line. I realize that they'll have my phyiscal address, but
if the PSAP tells the emergency service provider that the call
was from a "public telephone" my concern is that that might
delay the response since I live in a completely residential
neighborhood of single-family houses and nobody driving by
would think there's a "public telephone" in this house.

What do y'all think?

[GlowingBlueMist]

Post by Mark Rudholm
The only real phone line in my house is a (17Q) coin service line.
This is a proper coin-line designed for use with a standard telco
payphone. I have it because I collect vintage phones and wanted
my Western Electric 2C2 payphone to work properly. Eventually I'm
going to move it to Asterisk once I've hacked the line card driver
to recognize coin tones.
Anyway, I've told others in my household that the payphone is the
best bet for 911 calls (since calls placed from other phones in
the house are completed by various VoIP services).
I wonder, though, if the PSAP is going to see "public telephone"
(Class of Service = "27") on their screen if we call 911 from the
coin line. I realize that they'll have my phyiscal address, but
if the PSAP tells the emergency service provider that the call
was from a "public telephone" my concern is that that might
delay the response since I live in a completely residential
neighborhood of single-family houses and nobody driving by
would think there's a "public telephone" in this house.
What do y'all think?

You might consider contacting your local police department (on their
non-emergency number) and ask them if they have a procedure for performing a
test call. They might be willing to do it much like a burglar alarm test
call.

That way you would know for sure what address turns up on their screen as
well as starting what ever procedure that might be needed to correct a wrong
listing.

[Al Gillis]

Post by GlowingBlueMist

Post by Mark Rudholm
The only real phone line in my house is a (17Q) coin service line.
This is a proper coin-line designed for use with a standard telco
payphone. I have it because I collect vintage phones and wanted
my Western Electric 2C2 payphone to work properly. Eventually I'm
going to move it to Asterisk once I've hacked the line card driver
to recognize coin tones.
Anyway, I've told others in my household that the payphone is the
best bet for 911 calls (since calls placed from other phones in
the house are completed by various VoIP services).
I wonder, though, if the PSAP is going to see "public telephone"
(Class of Service = "27") on their screen if we call 911 from the
coin line. I realize that they'll have my phyiscal address, but
if the PSAP tells the emergency service provider that the call
was from a "public telephone" my concern is that that might
delay the response since I live in a completely residential
neighborhood of single-family houses and nobody driving by
would think there's a "public telephone" in this house.
What do y'all think?

You might consider contacting your local police department (on their
non-emergency number) and ask them if they have a procedure for performing
a test call. They might be willing to do it much like a burglar alarm
test call.
That way you would know for sure what address turns up on their screen as
well as starting what ever procedure that might be needed to correct a
wrong listing.

The cops are probably the wrong place to call to verify the operation of
your coin line... Most locations have a combined communications agency that
services the 911, city police, county sheriff as well as numerous fire and
first aid agencies. At least here in the Portland, OR area there are a few
of these agencies (based, generally, on the county in which you are
located). If you call those people they'll be able to confirm exactly what
they see on their screen when you call and, if you're having difficulties,
they'll have some technical person who can help you.

[Carl Navarro]

Post by Al Gillis

Post by GlowingBlueMist

Post by Mark Rudholm
The only real phone line in my house is a (17Q) coin service line.
This is a proper coin-line designed for use with a standard telco
payphone. I have it because I collect vintage phones and wanted
my Western Electric 2C2 payphone to work properly. Eventually I'm
going to move it to Asterisk once I've hacked the line card driver
to recognize coin tones.
Anyway, I've told others in my household that the payphone is the
best bet for 911 calls (since calls placed from other phones in
the house are completed by various VoIP services).
I wonder, though, if the PSAP is going to see "public telephone"
(Class of Service = "27") on their screen if we call 911 from the
coin line. I realize that they'll have my phyiscal address, but
if the PSAP tells the emergency service provider that the call
was from a "public telephone" my concern is that that might
delay the response since I live in a completely residential
neighborhood of single-family houses and nobody driving by
would think there's a "public telephone" in this house.
What do y'all think?

You might consider contacting your local police department (on their
non-emergency number) and ask them if they have a procedure for performing
a test call. They might be willing to do it much like a burglar alarm
test call.
That way you would know for sure what address turns up on their screen as
well as starting what ever procedure that might be needed to correct a
wrong listing.

The cops are probably the wrong place to call to verify the operation of
your coin line... Most locations have a combined communications agency that
services the 911, city police, county sheriff as well as numerous fire and
first aid agencies. At least here in the Portland, OR area there are a few
of these agencies (based, generally, on the county in which you are
located). If you call those people they'll be able to confirm exactly what
they see on their screen when you call and, if you're having difficulties,
they'll have some technical person who can help you.

Huh? Depends on where you live. In our county, we have 5 PSAP's as
primary answer points.. If you live in that city, that city answers,
if not the sheriff answers. You just have to figure out who answers
and call them on the landline to test.

Carl

[Mark Rudholm]

Post by Carl Navarro

Post by Al Gillis

Post by GlowingBlueMist

Post by Mark Rudholm
The only real phone line in my house is a (17Q) coin service line.
This is a proper coin-line designed for use with a standard telco
payphone. I have it because I collect vintage phones and wanted
my Western Electric 2C2 payphone to work properly. Eventually I'm
going to move it to Asterisk once I've hacked the line card driver
to recognize coin tones.
Anyway, I've told others in my household that the payphone is the
best bet for 911 calls (since calls placed from other phones in
the house are completed by various VoIP services).
I wonder, though, if the PSAP is going to see "public telephone"
(Class of Service = "27") on their screen if we call 911 from the
coin line. I realize that they'll have my phyiscal address, but
if the PSAP tells the emergency service provider that the call
was from a "public telephone" my concern is that that might
delay the response since I live in a completely residential
neighborhood of single-family houses and nobody driving by
would think there's a "public telephone" in this house.
What do y'all think?

You might consider contacting your local police department (on their
non-emergency number) and ask them if they have a procedure for performing
a test call. They might be willing to do it much like a burglar alarm
test call.
That way you would know for sure what address turns up on their screen as
well as starting what ever procedure that might be needed to correct a
wrong listing.

The cops are probably the wrong place to call to verify the operation of
your coin line... Most locations have a combined communications agency that
services the 911, city police, county sheriff as well as numerous fire and
first aid agencies. At least here in the Portland, OR area there are a few
of these agencies (based, generally, on the county in which you are
located). If you call those people they'll be able to confirm exactly what
they see on their screen when you call and, if you're having difficulties,
they'll have some technical person who can help you.

Huh? Depends on where you live. In our county, we have 5 PSAP's as
primary answer points.. If you live in that city, that city answers,
if not the sheriff answers. You just have to figure out who answers
and call them on the landline to test.
Carl

My city runs its own PSAP. I know they'll get the right street
address, I'm just curious if 1) they'll see that it's from a
payphone and 2) if that information will be given to the
emergency responder and cause a delay (since my house doesn't
look like a place that would have a payphone).

I'm pretty sure #1 is true (anyone with ANI II can see I'm calling
from a payphone, so I'm sure E911 delivers this info). So the real
question is if the dispatch sees it and how they treat that particular
bit of info.

[Carl Navarro]

Post by Mark Rudholm

Post by GlowingBlueMist

Post by Mark Rudholm
What do y'all think?

You might consider contacting your local police department (on their
non-emergency number) and ask them if they have a procedure for performing
a test call. They might be willing to do it much like a burglar alarm
test call.
That way you would know for sure what address turns up on their screen as
well as starting what ever procedure that might be needed to correct a
wrong listing.

My city runs its own PSAP. I know they'll get the right street
address, I'm just curious if 1) they'll see that it's from a
payphone and 2) if that information will be given to the
emergency responder and cause a delay (since my house doesn't
look like a place that would have a payphone).
I'm pretty sure #1 is true (anyone with ANI II can see I'm calling
from a payphone, so I'm sure E911 delivers this info). So the real
question is if the dispatch sees it and how they treat that particular
bit of info.

I believe you asked what we all thought and now you want to argue?

TEST THE LINE!

The type of line is probably NOT sent to a PSAP. The PSAP
administrator has the information of who the line belongs to. If they
are told the line is in a residence, then that's what is put in the
database.

Carl

[Mark Rudholm]

Post by Carl Navarro

Post by Mark Rudholm

Post by GlowingBlueMist

Post by Mark Rudholm
What do y'all think?

You might consider contacting your local police department (on their
non-emergency number) and ask them if they have a procedure for performing
a test call. They might be willing to do it much like a burglar alarm
test call.
That way you would know for sure what address turns up on their screen as
well as starting what ever procedure that might be needed to correct a
wrong listing.

My city runs its own PSAP. I know they'll get the right street
address, I'm just curious if 1) they'll see that it's from a
payphone and 2) if that information will be given to the
emergency responder and cause a delay (since my house doesn't
look like a place that would have a payphone).
I'm pretty sure #1 is true (anyone with ANI II can see I'm calling
from a payphone, so I'm sure E911 delivers this info). So the real
question is if the dispatch sees it and how they treat that particular
bit of info.

I believe you asked what we all thought and now you want to argue?

I think you're either attributing a post to me that someone
else made or simply mis-reading my tone here. I'm not arguing,
I was just trying to ensure that I had clearly characterized
my thoughts. Granted, the topic was at least as much a
discussion as it was a question.

Post by Carl Navarro
TEST THE LINE!

Yep. I plan to during the business week.

Post by Carl Navarro
The type of line is probably NOT sent to a PSAP. The PSAP
administrator has the information of who the line belongs to. If they
are told the line is in a residence, then that's what is put in the
database.

My city's Police Dept does run a PSAP (#834) that is purported to
handle all 911 calls that originate within the city. I am curious
why you think calls to 911 from my coin line wouldn't go to a PSAP
though.

-Mark

[Carl Navarro]

On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 00:40:22 GMT, Mark Rudholm

Post by Mark Rudholm

Post by Carl Navarro

Post by Mark Rudholm

Post by GlowingBlueMist

Post by Mark Rudholm
What do y'all think?

You might consider contacting your local police department (on their
non-emergency number) and ask them if they have a procedure for performing
a test call. They might be willing to do it much like a burglar alarm
test call.
That way you would know for sure what address turns up on their screen as
well as starting what ever procedure that might be needed to correct a
wrong listing.

My city runs its own PSAP. I know they'll get the right street
address, I'm just curious if 1) they'll see that it's from a
payphone and 2) if that information will be given to the
emergency responder and cause a delay (since my house doesn't
look like a place that would have a payphone).
I'm pretty sure #1 is true (anyone with ANI II can see I'm calling
from a payphone, so I'm sure E911 delivers this info). So the real
question is if the dispatch sees it and how they treat that particular
bit of info.

I believe you asked what we all thought and now you want to argue?

I think you're either attributing a post to me that someone
else made or simply mis-reading my tone here. I'm not arguing,
I was just trying to ensure that I had clearly characterized
my thoughts. Granted, the topic was at least as much a
discussion as it was a question.

Post by Carl Navarro
TEST THE LINE!

Yep. I plan to during the business week.

Post by Carl Navarro
The type of line is probably NOT sent to a PSAP. The PSAP
administrator has the information of who the line belongs to. If they
are told the line is in a residence, then that's what is put in the
database.

My city's Police Dept does run a PSAP (#834) that is purported to
handle all 911 calls that originate within the city. I am curious
why you think calls to 911 from my coin line wouldn't go to a PSAP
though.
-Mark

Actually no, here's your quote:

" My city runs its own PSAP. I know they'll get the right street
address, I'm just curious if 1) they'll see that it's from a
payphone and 2) if that information will be given to the
emergency responder and cause a delay (since my house doesn't
look like a place that would have a payphone).

I'm pretty sure #1 is true (anyone with ANI II can see I'm calling
from a payphone, so I'm sure E911 delivers this info). So the real
question is if the dispatch sees it and how they treat that particular
bit of info"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think payphone screen codes get transmitted with the ANI
unless they've done some changes. The point is, the database controls
the listing not the screen code. The 911 database administrator
controls what the PSAP operators see.

You're on the right track. If, in your test, you don't like what they
see, call back in on the landline and ask to talk to the database
administrator. They will be happy to make sure they see what they're
supposed to see.

Carl

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

Post by Mark Rudholm
The only real phone line in my house is a (17Q) coin service line.
I wonder, though, if the PSAP is going to see "public telephone"

Having made 911 calls from a payphone, the police don't seem to care.
I would say it's just as reliable as any other landline phone with
giving the correct address.

As others mentioned, test it. I was told to dial 911, then announce
"this is a test of the line, could you confirm my location at 1234
Main Street, 555-2368?" The operator should do so.

[Mark Rudholm]

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com

Post by Mark Rudholm
The only real phone line in my house is a (17Q) coin service line.
I wonder, though, if the PSAP is going to see "public telephone"

Having made 911 calls from a payphone, the police don't seem to care.
I would say it's just as reliable as any other landline phone with
giving the correct address.
As others mentioned, test it. I was told to dial 911, then announce
"this is a test of the line, could you confirm my location at 1234
Main Street, 555-2368?" The operator should do so.

I called my PSAP's "non-emergency" number first, gave a brief
explanation about wanting to test 911 service from a "non-standard"
phone line in my house. They were very nice and said "ok, you
can go ahead and call now." after getting my street address. I
asked her how the call was showing up, we confirmed the address was
correct, and she said "it's showing up as a payphone, though."

I asked if that might delay an emergency repsonder, since the
line is actually in a single-family residence. She said that it
would not, since the address is correct. She futher explained
that the only difference in how they handle payphone vs. regular
lines is that on hangup calls, where the caller doesn't say
anything at all, they only send one unit if the call originated
from a payphone, but they send two units if the call originated
from a regular line. That seems to be a completely acceptable
limitation, IMO.

So there's the answer. For my PSAP at least, they do see that the
call originates from a payphone, but it doesn't really make much
of a difference.

[Bill]

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com

Post by Mark Rudholm
The only real phone line in my house is a (17Q) coin service line.
I wonder, though, if the PSAP is going to see "public telephone"

Having made 911 calls from a payphone, the police don't seem to care.
I would say it's just as reliable as any other landline phone with
giving the correct address.
As others mentioned, test it. I was told to dial 911, then announce
"this is a test of the line, could you confirm my location at 1234
Main Street, 555-2368?" The operator should do so.

One question.

Is your coint phoneline a full public, or a semi-public coin paid line?

Unless the line was brought in from the street, and is a full public coin,
then if it is a semi-public coin telephone your name, or the name of the
party that receives a comission revenue payment check from the local
service provider, & address should be in the 911 database. This should
also track telco repair records.

Full public coins in the former Bell Atlantic area of Verizon, I don't know
about the fGTE areas, are translated to block incoming calls (NYNEX did
this around 1994-1995).

This above was done during the heyday of the digital beeper when drug
dealers would hang around street coin phones to cut their deals. Now with
cellphones, its a moot point.


Bill

[Mark Rudholm]

Post by Bill

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com

Post by Mark Rudholm
The only real phone line in my house is a (17Q) coin service line.
I wonder, though, if the PSAP is going to see "public telephone"

Having made 911 calls from a payphone, the police don't seem to care.
I would say it's just as reliable as any other landline phone with
giving the correct address.
As others mentioned, test it. I was told to dial 911, then announce
"this is a test of the line, could you confirm my location at 1234
Main Street, 555-2368?" The operator should do so.

One question.
Is your coint phoneline a full public, or a semi-public coin paid line?
Unless the line was brought in from the street, and is a full public coin,
then if it is a semi-public coin telephone your name, or the name of the
party that receives a comission revenue payment check from the local
service provider, & address should be in the 911 database. This should
also track telco repair records.
Full public coins in the former Bell Atlantic area of Verizon, I don't know
about the fGTE areas, are translated to block incoming calls (NYNEX did
this around 1994-1995).

It's a USOC 17Q Coin Service Line, off a DMS-100
(LSANCA34DS1), provided by Pacific Bell / SBC / AT&T
(call them whatever you like) out of Los Angeles
District Area 5. The class of service / screen code
is "27" It is treated in some ways as a business line,
and it pays business rates. The "business" in this
case is simply me. The bill comes from SBC/AT&T
directly to me. The service is about 65$/month after
taxes.

These lines are normally used by Payphone Service
Providers that want real telco-style coin signalling.
It has no inter-LATA service, as that is no longer
available since AT&T stopped offering it.

The installer was a bit confused when he showed up
to install it. He was sure there was a mix-up on
the order. I had to *insist* that I really did want
a 17Q.

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

Post by Bill
Full public coins in the former Bell Atlantic area of Verizon, I don't know
about the fGTE areas, are translated to block incoming calls (NYNEX did
this around 1994-1995).

Not all public pay phones were programmed to block incoming calls*.

In any event, I've seen 911 call back a payphone where the caller hung
up.

I find it hard to believe that 911 service would be any less from a
payphone line, regardless of its classification. If anything, since
pay phones serve as a public emergency phone, their need is critical.
Some transit carriers have pay phones in stations, even at a cost
loss, to serve that need.

(*Some pay phones were converted back to rotary in an attempt to
thwart beeper use.)

P.S. FWIW, Verizon pay phones in and around New York City offer coin
distant long distance (station) at 25c/minute, $1 minimum. Useful
service. In some other places, the pay phones no longer offer coin
distant long distance. They offer regional coin service and it ain't
cheap.

[Diamond Dave]

On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 08:08:43 GMT, Mark Rudholm

Post by Mark Rudholm
The only real phone line in my house is a (17Q) coin service line.
This is a proper coin-line designed for use with a standard telco
payphone. I have it because I collect vintage phones and wanted
my Western Electric 2C2 payphone to work properly. Eventually I'm
going to move it to Asterisk once I've hacked the line card driver
to recognize coin tones.

Out of curiousity, how much does the line cost you per month?

I recently bought an AE 120B pay phone (their answer to the WE
payphone) and would wonder how much it could cost to have full coin
service installed.

Dave

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

Post by Diamond Dave
I recently bought an AE 120B pay phone (their answer to the WE
payphone) and would wonder how much it could cost to have full coin
service installed.

I guess the line rental would enable your phone to handle local calls,
I presume they send out a coin collect or return signal based on
supervision of the called party as has been traditionally done.

Some older "post pay" phones did not use a hold area, rather, they
required a deposit only if the called local party was reached. They
required a switched polarity line to signal and reset the collection
function. (The transmitter is cut out until the 10c is desposited).
I doubt this protocol is supported today.

But what about toll calls? How would calls be handled and billed?