Loss of analog cell phone in remote areas?

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

Sometime next year analog cell phone service will cease and everyone
will have to use digital. Old analog cell phones will cease to work.

But will digital phones be strong enough to work in remote areas? As
I understand it, people in remote areas continue to use the older
analog 'bag" phones because they have a higher powered signal
necessary to reach the distant towers. Tiny digital handsets won't
have that capability.

Is anyone familiar with this issue and how it will be addressed?

[danny burstein]

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Sometime next year analog cell phone service will cease and everyone
will have to use digital. Old analog cell phones will cease to work.
But will digital phones be strong enough to work in remote areas? As
I understand it, people in remote areas continue to use the older
analog 'bag" phones because they have a higher powered signal
necessary to reach the distant towers. Tiny digital handsets won't
have that capability.

It's actually more a function of the antenna than
power, but yes, it's a real issue.

(With the "bag phones" you could use a car rooftop
antenna. Since it was outside the car, and also had
a ground plane, it was much, much, better than
the stuff in your hand).

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Is anyone familiar with this issue and how it will be addressed?

Eyup. It's called "tough shit".

[Dana]

Post by danny burstein

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Sometime next year analog cell phone service will cease and everyone
will have to use digital. Old analog cell phones will cease to work.
But will digital phones be strong enough to work in remote areas? As
I understand it, people in remote areas continue to use the older
analog 'bag" phones because they have a higher powered signal
necessary to reach the distant towers. Tiny digital handsets won't
have that capability.

It's actually more a function of the antenna than
power, but yes, it's a real issue.

For the bag phones, the power out is also very important. The Bag phones
typically had a higher output than a handset phone.
Of course as cell sites decreased in size, and more cell sites were built,
the need for bag phones went down. Now they are used in analog systems where
a subscriber may be quite a ways away from the nearest tower.

Post by danny burstein
(With the "bag phones" you could use a car rooftop
antenna. Since it was outside the car, and also had
a ground plane, it was much, much, better than
the stuff in your hand).

Bagphones also come with whip antennas.

Post by danny burstein

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Is anyone familiar with this issue and how it will be addressed?

Eyup. It's called "tough shit".
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

[John L]

(With the "bag phones" you could use a car rooftop antenna. Since it
was outside the car, and also had a ground plane, it was much, much,
better than the stuff in your hand).

You can use a car rooftop antenna with digital phones, too, so long as
you have one with an antenna jack. I use a well worn but reliable
Nokia 6340 (in GSM mode, no service on TDMA or AMPS here) with the Nokia
car kit that includes cabling for an external antenna:

http://www.keep-talking.net/nokia_car_kits.htm

(It even has an optional handset, not illustrated here.)

You can also get signal boosters that splice into the antenna cable
and boost your power up to the 2 or 3 watt limit, e.g.:

http://www.cellantenna.com/Boosters/cellphone_signal_boosters.htm

All of these are intended for a car, but I don't see any reason you
couldn't build them into a bag if you really want something you can
lug.

[Dana]

Post by John L

(With the "bag phones" you could use a car rooftop antenna. Since it
was outside the car, and also had a ground plane, it was much, much,
better than the stuff in your hand).

You can use a car rooftop antenna with digital phones, too, so long as
you have one with an antenna jack. I use a well worn but reliable
Nokia 6340 (in GSM mode, no service on TDMA or AMPS here) with the Nokia
http://www.keep-talking.net/nokia_car_kits.htm
(It even has an optional handset, not illustrated here.)
You can also get signal boosters that splice into the antenna cable
http://www.cellantenna.com/Boosters/cellphone_signal_boosters.htm
All of these are intended for a car, but I don't see any reason you
couldn't build them into a bag if you really want something you can
lug.

Interesting links. Thanks

[Dana]

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Sometime next year analog cell phone service will cease and everyone
will have to use digital. Old analog cell phones will cease to work.

That is not true.

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
But will digital phones be strong enough to work in remote areas?

Depends on system design

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
As
I understand it, people in remote areas continue to use the older
analog 'bag" phones because they have a higher powered signal
necessary to reach the distant towers.

That is one reason, but not the only one

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Tiny digital handsets won't
have that capability.

Again, that depends on system design

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Is anyone familiar with this issue and how it will be addressed?

Quite a few people are

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

Post by Dana

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Sometime next year analog cell phone service will cease and everyone
will have to use digital. Old analog cell phones will cease to work.

That is not true.

Well then, what is the policy regarding the older analog frequencies?
Many said they were needed for other uses since they had less capacity
than digital.

Post by Dana

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
But will digital phones be strong enough to work in remote areas?

Depends on system design

What factors of system design are those?

Post by Dana

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
I understand it, people in remote areas continue to use the older
analog 'bag" phones because they have a higher powered signal
necessary to reach the distant towers.

That is one reason, but not the only one

What are the other reasons?

Post by Dana

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Is anyone familiar with this issue and how it will be addressed?

Quite a few people are

How will it be addressed?

[Dana]

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com

Post by Dana

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Sometime next year analog cell phone service will cease and everyone
will have to use digital. Old analog cell phones will cease to work.

That is not true.

Well then, what is the policy regarding the older analog frequencies?

Frequencies are neither analog or digital.
What I think you are trying to ask, is what about the cellular frequencies,
and how they are to be used.
How they are used depends on the plans of the operator.

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Many said they were needed for other uses since they had less capacity
than digital.

Again, that is not quite correct. Digital cellular systems use the same
frequencies as the analog systems. The digital systems are more efficient in
the use of the frequency in question. In other words for a given bandwidth
available to a carrier, by using digital techniques, more calls can be made
than would be possible using analog techniques.

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com

Post by Dana

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
But will digital phones be strong enough to work in remote areas?

Depends on system design

What factors of system design are those?

Quite a few.
TX power
RX sensitivity
Number of cell sites
etc, etc

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com

Post by Dana

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
I understand it, people in remote areas continue to use the older
analog 'bag" phones because they have a higher powered signal
necessary to reach the distant towers.

That is one reason, but not the only one

What are the other reasons?

Quite a few.

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com

Post by Dana

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Is anyone familiar with this issue and how it will be addressed?

Quite a few people are

How will it be addressed?

Look at what the carriers are doing. They all have some kind of plan.
Going digital benefits the carrier and the public as a whole. In more rural
areas the need to go digital is not so pressing, so the uptake will be
slower in rural areas. And even that is not 100% correct, as digital offers
more functionality than present analog systems, hence analog systems even in
rural areas are migrating to digital systems.

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

Post by Dana

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Well then, what is the policy regarding the older analog frequencies?

Frequencies are neither analog or digital.
What I think you are trying to ask, is what about the cellular frequencies,
and how they are to be used.
How they are used depends on the plans of the operator.

It is my understanding that all US carriers are switching to wholly
digital because digital has more capacity than analog and they need
the capacity. That being the case, how will service in remote areas
be impacted? Others have noted difficulties with digital if there is
a long distance. Some have noted there are boosters or car antenni to
assist.

[Dana]

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com

Post by Dana

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Well then, what is the policy regarding the older analog frequencies?

Frequencies are neither analog or digital.
What I think you are trying to ask, is what about the cellular frequencies,
and how they are to be used.
How they are used depends on the plans of the operator.

It is my understanding that all US carriers are switching to wholly
digital because digital has more capacity than analog and they need
the capacity.

Correct. And again rural carriers may not go digital as quickly as their
urban counterparts.

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
That being the case, how will service in remote areas
be impacted?

Depending on the carrier, service to remote areas in regards to coverage
should not decrease. And in these remote areas you will may see a slower
change to digital

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Others have noted difficulties with digital if there is
a long distance. Some have noted there are boosters or car antenni to
assist.

Proper system design by the carrier should overcome those issues.

[Linc Madison]

What about services like OnStar that are based (at least in early
models, many of which are still on the road) on analog cellular?

I went to OnStar's website, which explains that, effective 2008-01-01,
you will no longer be able to get the service if your unit is
analog-only. They are offering an upgrade path for some older units
that are "analog/digital-ready." If you have the oldest units, built
before GM anticipated the end of analog, you're out of luck.

And yes, the FCC requirement is that, until 2008-02-18, "each cellular
system that provides two-way cellular mobile radiotelephone service"
must provide analog AMPS service. [47 CFR 22.901(b)] In other words,
starting next February, cellular providers are *allowed* to stop
providing analog service.

[Paul]

Post by Linc Madison
What about services like OnStar that are based (at least in early
models, many of which are still on the road) on analog cellular?
I went to OnStar's website, which explains that, effective 2008-01-01,
you will no longer be able to get the service if your unit is
analog-only. They are offering an upgrade path for some older units
that are "analog/digital-ready." If you have the oldest units, built
before GM anticipated the end of analog, you're out of luck.

When someone I know asked about an upgrade for this, he was told that
the upgrade was to buy a new car. Seriously. :(

I hate to think what the OnStar users who have not been paying attention
will do when "I had an emergency, and it didn't work!"

I also wonder if OnStar has stopped or will stop charging their fee to
those users automatically on or before that time, or if they will use
the AOL model....

Post by Linc Madison
And yes, the FCC requirement is that, until 2008-02-18, "each cellular
system that provides two-way cellular mobile radiotelephone service"
must provide analog AMPS service. [47 CFR 22.901(b)] In other words,
starting next February, cellular providers are *allowed* to stop
providing analog service.

[John L]

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com

Post by Dana

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Sometime next year analog cell phone service will cease and everyone
will have to use digital. Old analog cell phones will cease to work.

That is not true.

Well then, what is the policy regarding the older analog frequencies?

The frequencies aren't changing, just the coding between the phones
and towers.

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Many said they were needed for other uses since they had less capacity
than digital.

I think you're confusing analog AMPS phones with analog NTSC television.

R's,
John

[h***@bbs.cpcn.com]

Post by John L

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com

Post by Dana

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Sometime next year analog cell phone service will cease and everyone
will have to use digital. Old analog cell phones will cease to work.

That is not true.

Well then, what is the policy regarding the older analog frequencies?

The frequencies aren't changing, just the coding between the phones
and towers.

Let's return to the original question:

Sometime next year analog cell phone service will cease and everyone
will have to use digital. Old analog cell phones will cease to work.

But will digital phones be strong enough to work in remote areas?

[Dana]

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com

Post by John L

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com

Post by Dana

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Sometime next year analog cell phone service will cease and everyone
will have to use digital. Old analog cell phones will cease to work.

That is not true.

Well then, what is the policy regarding the older analog frequencies?

The frequencies aren't changing, just the coding between the phones
and towers.

Sometime next year analog cell phone service will cease and everyone
will have to use digital. Old analog cell phones will cease to work.

But that is not the case. The FCC only stated that carriers no longer have
to support analog users. The users in question here are utilities, security
companies, etc that were using these analog systems to backhaul there
data,etc. This has only given the carriers the ability to now switch to
digital only. And this will require a buildout that many carriers have
already started.

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
But will digital phones be strong enough to work in remote areas?

Yes

[Steven Lichter]

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com

Post by John L

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com

Post by Dana

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Sometime next year analog cell phone service will cease and everyone
will have to use digital. Old analog cell phones will cease to work.

That is not true.

Well then, what is the policy regarding the older analog frequencies?

The frequencies aren't changing, just the coding between the phones
and towers.

Sometime next year analog cell phone service will cease and everyone
will have to use digital. Old analog cell phones will cease to work.
But will digital phones be strong enough to work in remote areas?

In some areas with low power you will have major problems. There is
going to have to be a major add of towers or a change in how the calls
are handled by those towers.

[Dana]

Post by Steven Lichter

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com

Post by John L

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com

Post by Dana

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Sometime next year analog cell phone service will cease and everyone
will have to use digital. Old analog cell phones will cease to work.

That is not true.

Well then, what is the policy regarding the older analog frequencies?

The frequencies aren't changing, just the coding between the phones
and towers.

Sometime next year analog cell phone service will cease and everyone
will have to use digital. Old analog cell phones will cease to work.
But will digital phones be strong enough to work in remote areas?

In some areas with low power you will have major problems.

Not if proper system planning was done.

Post by Steven Lichter
There is
going to have to be a major add of towers or a change in how the calls are
handled by those towers.
--
The Only Good Spammer is a Dead one!! Have you hunted one down today? (c)
2007 I Kill Spammers, Inc. A Rot In Hell Co.

[B***@gmail.com]

Post by Dana

Post by Steven Lichter

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com

Post by Dana

Sometime next year analogcellphone service will cease and everyone
will have to use digital. Old analogcellphoneswill cease to work.

That is not true.

Well then, what is the policy regarding the older analog frequencies?

The frequencies aren't changing, just the coding between thephones
and towers.

Sometime next year analogcellphone service will cease and everyone
will have to use digital. Old analogcellphoneswill cease to work.
But will digitalphonesbe strong enough to work in remote areas?

In some areas with low power you will have major problems.

Not if proper system planning was done.

Post by Steven Lichter
There is
going to have to be a major add of towers or a change in how the calls are
handled by those towers.
--
The Only Good Spammer is a Dead one!! Have you hunted one down today? (c)
2007 I Kill Spammers, Inc. A Rot In Hell Co.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

wuz up cuz

[Howard Eisenhauer]

Unfortunately its not just a problem of power output, for the systems
using GSM there are also timing issues involved that limit the maximum
range to about 20 miles. I've been in situations where I've had
plenty of signal strength but couln't establish a call due to this
distance limitation.


H.

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Sometime next year analog cell phone service will cease and everyone
will have to use digital. Old analog cell phones will cease to work.
But will digital phones be strong enough to work in remote areas? As
I understand it, people in remote areas continue to use the older
analog 'bag" phones because they have a higher powered signal
necessary to reach the distant towers. Tiny digital handsets won't
have that capability.
Is anyone familiar with this issue and how it will be addressed?

[John L]

Post by Howard Eisenhauer
Unfortunately its not just a problem of power output, for the systems
using GSM there are also timing issues involved that limit the maximum
range to about 20 miles. I've been in situations where I've had
plenty of signal strength but couln't establish a call due to this
distance limitation.

Good point. I hear that the GSM towers on the coast of Brittany in
France make the TDMA slot size double width so people on ferries out
in the channel can use them.

R's,
John

[Howard Eisenhauer]

Post by John L

Post by Howard Eisenhauer
Unfortunately its not just a problem of power output, for the systems
using GSM there are also timing issues involved that limit the maximum
range to about 20 miles. I've been in situations where I've had
plenty of signal strength but couln't establish a call due to this
distance limitation.

Good point. I hear that the GSM towers on the coast of Brittany in
France make the TDMA slot size double width so people on ferries out
in the channel can use them.
R's,
John

Yup, its called "half rate"- four timeslots/conversations per rf
channel instead of eight. The call quality dose'nt improve, the
regular CODEC remains in use, they just double the "cush space" for
incoming data bursts. Also used along remote highways but it's,
predictably, not as cost effective/profitable as "full rate" cells.

CDMA systems don't suffer from this so much, they have a pretty wide
timing window for the base reciever to lock onto & follow the mobiles
signal. On the other hand they do suffer from "The Mysterious
Shrinking Cell Site Syndrome". CDMA systems like everybody's signal
to arrive at the same level, to do this the systems commands
subscriber's phones to raise & lower thier output power so that the
base station receiver sees everybody the same. If there's someone
close in on a call who's phone's power output can't be commanded any
lower, & you're out in the boonies (with lottsa bars showing on your
screen) & your phone can't be commanded any higher, once the
difference reaches a critical level you'll be denied service. :(.

This can even happen during a call in progress :( :(

I miss my bagphone :(


H.

[Brian Elfert]

Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
But will digital phones be strong enough to work in remote areas? As
I understand it, people in remote areas continue to use the older
analog 'bag" phones because they have a higher powered signal
necessary to reach the distant towers. Tiny digital handsets won't
have that capability.

US Cellular has a digital bag phone from Motorola. It is $529 full price
with a $50 rebate for plans over $39.99 and an $80 discount for a 2 year
contract.

Brian Elfert